Wednesday, May 30, 2018

2004 L’Encantada Lous Pibous Cask 196 56%

Updated for your reading pleasure...

Here’s another L’Encantada review. There’s no shortage of these reviews because there is no shortage of L’Encantada in the States, or at least, that's how is appears to me. So far, L’Encantada has been the most reviewed bottler on this blog. There have only been a handful of selections by private groups and a few Stateside stores so far (around 7 or 8 barrel picks), but more bottles are slated for touchdown in various markets soon, and really, everyone in the American brandy nerd / community groups seems to be enjoying L’Encantada these days...just head over to the Facebook groups or google L’Encantada review...there's no dearth of coverage, discussion, or reviews.

Before I get to the review, I had a few thoughts I wanted to jot down. The first is that I think L’Encantada is taking advantage of the American brandy desert by selling unique, single cask brandies. Not many brandy producers are selling the same product Stateside and I think by and large, L’Encantada's popularity is the result of filling a gaping-wide hole in the American brandy market. There are some other bottlers on American shelves, but there are questions as to sources of distillate, whether its true cask strength, whether it's colored, etc...questions that make spirits geeks waffle on spending $100+ on a particular bottle. What L’Encantada brings to the table is the most transparent brandy available in America.

Which brings me to my second thought, which is that I think L’Encantada, a small, independent bottler, has taken the right approach to selling spirits in the US market, one that has allowed them to flourish and grow in popularity. I believe that L’Encantada's approach could serve as a model for other, small brandy bottlers and producers.

Now, let me elaborate on what I mean by "approach" and "model" because there was some confusion as to what I was trying to convey on my initial draft, likely as a result of trying to pound out a quick post and speaking too generally...After initially attempting to enter the American market with little to no interest, L’Encantada, was approached by a small group of whiskey geeks about purchasing a cask. The purchase was run through a boutique liquor store which also purchased some L’Encantada-bottled brandy. From there, other groups and stores have started working with L’Encantada, and more bottles are on the way (or at least in the works). L’Encantada is developing a great reputation by working with a private groups and boutique liquor stores - the nerds are getting their hands on good brandy and sharing it with people, which is drumming up more curiosity and interest in L’Encantada. It's a form of grassroots marketing that costs L’Encantada nothing, really…and now when a store gets a L’Encantada pick, it sells out instantly…if a group pick hits secondary, it flips for double the initial cost.

So when I talk about  L’Encantada's "approach," or their "model" (which appears to be more incidental than intentional based on conversations with people possessing intimate knowledge of L’Encantada's operations), what I am saying is that rather than spending a significant amount of money on marketing and focusing on portfolio-specific products, small brandy producers or bottlers could instead work with private spirits groups and boutique liquor stores, sell unique products (i.e single casks, special blends, etc.), and churn up demand for their products...if you have a good distillate, let the nerds be your marketing mouthpiece. Ultimately, I think  L’Encantada is showing that working with private groups and stores can be a successful approach to selling bottles in the American market as opposed to taking other, more traditional approaches to increasing demand.

One caveat I want to point out (which is purely subjective and solely based on my opinion) is that working with private groups before stores might be the best course of action. Aside from vetting the quality of a particular spirit before selecting it, the groups are entrenched in the spirits community and are in the best position to speak to the community about the spirit's quality. Surely there will always be bias, but people tend to lend more credibility to information from someone hyping something not for sale (i.e. private group picks) as opposed to someone hyping something they are trying to sell (i.e. store picks). I have seen more than a few store-picked brandies just languish on shelves. Plus, L’Encantada initially approached a store and was turned away...it was the nerds (also known as consumers) that got the ball rolling!

I hope that brings some clarity to what I was originally trying to say. With that in mind...

Here is a review of a 2004 L’Encantada Lous Pibous Cask 196 56%. The bottle was selected by the Brandy Brothers. I initially wrote that it was selected by 1789b but apparently it's a Brandy Brother's pick (its worth mentioning the selecting group was essentially all 1789b members and cask 196 was pretty much sold exclusively to 1789b members...take it for what it is). The label has “by Philippe” handwritten on it, and from the 1789b member who is responsible for initially bringing L'Encantada Stateside: "Pibous is the domain that grew the grapes, made the wine and aged the Armagnac. They did not do the distillation. They hired a travelling distiller/still from the town of Condom. 1993 and later Pibous was distilled by Philippe..."

On to the review...

Nose: strawberry jello and beef stock…apples, amaretto, and a little Robitussin cough syrup

Taste: this is meaty – is that you, Mortlach??? This really has a lot of sherried Mortlach qualities with plenty of beef bullion, brine/salt and a little sulfur…some mineral qualities (slate) and somewhat jammy, with some cherries in there...I also get some medicinal qualities – I’ll call it cough syrup

Finish: nice length with the finish…the Mortlachyness meaty/salty character dominates the end

Thoughts
When I first opened this I absolutely adored it (probably because I adore sherried Mortlach) and I embarked to get more. At that time it was a clear “A” to me. Then a week later I revisited the bottle for an official review and it was as if someone turned on the lights at the bar...at 2am – oh boy...with air and time the flavors amplified, and instead of working in harmony when I first opened it, they were in an ugly battle for palate domination. Cask 196 is not bad by any stretch, just to me, it’s not very balanced. I’ve heard that this is a polarizing pick, which makes sense. I also see why it was picked – it's very unique. So please remember this is just one man’s perspective and I’m sure there are many others. With that in mind, I’m giving this a…

Grade: B

Thursday, May 24, 2018

Cognac Barrels


There are plenty of resources on the web about whisky barrels, but when it comes to cognac barrels, I couldn’t find a one-stop shop that provided all of the information I was looking for – even the BNIC website had some informational gaps. A lot of sites were pretty helpful, though, and this post is the result of cobbling together information from various sites and creating that one-stop shop for your cognac barrel information needs. I hope this post is an evolving piece since I don’t know everything about cognac barrels and more knowledgeable people will (hopefully) chime in to keep us informed and honest.

The Law
The AOC regulations and law regarding cognac can be found in the Decree n ° 2009-1146 of September 21st, 2009 relating to the controlled label of origin "Cognac" or "Brandy of Cognac" or "Brandy of the Charentes" (the link is provided below).

Article 3, Paragraph D, Subparagraph 9 of the regulations state that "spirits intended for direct human consumption shall be aged in an oak container for a minimum period of two years."

  • The use of the term “oak” is a generic term. Article 3, Paragraph E, Subparagraph 4 ("Ageing") states that "the Tronçais or Limousin type oak ("oak" or "pedunculate" according to the uses) was chosen because of its capacity to allow for long periods the exchanges between brandy, the external environment and the wood. . The numerous cooperage companies that have developed in the geographical area have been able, in close relationship with Cognac winemakers, to build know-how in the development of the most suitable housing for the aging of Cognac. It is up to the cellar masters to select the most suitable dwellings, according to the initial characteristics of the new brandies, the aging stage and its qualitative objectives". When the regulations discuss Tronçais or Limousin type oak (along with some online articles), they indicate that cognac casks have traditionally made from French oak, but there is also no outright prohibition on using any type of oak, really, and the primary use of French oak appears to be more of a general trade practice. As proof, Bache Gabrielsen released a cognac aged in virgin Tennessee oak, which was allowed to be called cognac.
  • In the past, the law may have prevented aging cognac in re-use casks, or at least it was frowned upon (?). Currently, the regulations do not address using re-use oak casks, and it appears that cognac can be aged in oak casks that previously held grape-based wines and spirits. On the web, there are several sites addressing Pierre Ferrand’s discovery of an early 20th century document showing cognac can be aged in wine casks (or at least that the practice used to be allowed). There are now several wine cask finished cognacs on the market, such as the Pierre Ferrand Renegade Barrel No. 1 which is finished in a Sauternes wine cask, as well as the Courvoisier’s Sherry Cask Finish Cognac, which was finished in a sherry wine cask.
  • An oak cask that previously held non-grape based wine or spirit, such as bourbon or scotch, cannot be used to age cognac. Again, there are no regulations addressing this and it appears to be a trade practice or tacit understanding among cognac makers. Martel recently released Blue Swift, which is a VSOP cognac that was finished in bourbon casks. If you look at the very bottom of the front label it states “Eau de Vie de Vin,” which is intended to mean it’s not technically cognac (even though it says cognac on the upper part of the label…I know). Deceptively clever labels aside, if a cognac is aged in a cask that contained non-grape aged wine or spirits, it cannot be called cognac.

I guess to distill down the law of cognac casks into one sentence, “cognac must be aged in oak casks, either new oak casks or oak casks previously containing only grape-based wine or spirits” (yes, I’m quoting myself here).

One takeaway regarding the law is that if there isn't a direct statement prohibiting a particular practice, it seems like trade norms dictate whether a practice is allowable (such as using re-use wine casks) or impermissible (such as using re-use bourbon/scotch casks). I think the use of re-use wine casks was able to sneak into permissible usage because (1) cognac is aged in both virgin oak and re-use barrels that previously held cognac, (2) a prohibition on all re-use casks would prevent cognac from being aged in second fill cognac casks, and (3) being a grape distillate, cognac and wine are in the same family, and I think some clever producers used similarities and semantics to their advantage.   

The Main Types of Oak
This is an area that has tripped me up for a while because people refer to geographical regions as if they are tree varietals, different scientific names are used for the same types of trees, etc. So hopefully this provides some clarity…

Even though the law allows for cognac to be aged in any variety of oak cask(s), cognac is traditionally a tale of two oaks: Tronçais and Limousin. When people talk about Tronçais and Limousin, they are technically not referring to a type of oak, but rather, the region from where the oak trees were sourced.

Region: Tronçais (pronounced “tron-say”)
The forest of Tronçais is a French national forest which is located in Allier - practically the center of France. In regard to oak trees, 73% of the forest is comprised of Sessile oak (Quercus Sessiliflora / Quercus Petraea) and 8% is comprised of Pedunculated oak (Quercus robur). The Office Nationale des Forets (“ONF”) manages the forest of Tronçais and also handles the sale of oak within the forest (along with replanting trees and addressing sustainability issues). The oak trees sold to coopers (both wine and cognac barrel coopers) tend to be very old, easily over 100 years in age. Coopers can bid on particular trees and usually purchase the oak trees several years before use. The ONF cuts and processes the oak trees and retains the timber on behalf of the coopers for several years to allow for sufficient air seasoning time (up to 3 years).



Region: Limousin (pronunciation “lee-mo-sen”)
The forests from several regions of western France are generally considered the Limousin region, to include the eastern part of the departments of Deux-Sevres, Vienne, Hautes de Vienne, the northern part of the Correze, the Creuze, the eastern part of the Charente and the southern part of the Indre; the area is pretty close in proximity to the Cognac region. A majority of the oak trees in this region are Pedunculated Oak (Quercus Robur) and many of the woods in this region are also managed by the ONF.


Actual types of oak used for cognac cask making

• Sessile Oak (Quercus Sessiliflora / Quercus petraea / Quercus Rouvre) – wood from this tree is generally tightly-grained and softer for an oak.


• Pedunculated Oak (Quercus Robur) - wood from this tree tends to have wider grain than Sessile Oak and it imparts more tannin into the spirit. According to some sites, these oak trees impart vanilla notes into the cognac.


Do the differences in species matter? That depends. What I’ve found is that coopers do not usually distinguish the two species of wood in their workshops and instead pay more attention to forest location and grain size than oak species. However; the forests of Tronçais and Limousin generally contain different types oak trees, so species overlap in cask making is likely not an issue. Further, most cognac producers prefer the use Limousin oak due to the heavier tannins imparted from the oak (it also probably helps, or at least plays a role, that Limousin is close to the Cognac region).

To summarize, Tronçais and Limousin are not oak types but regions where specific types of oak trees grow; Sessile Oak is the predominate oak in Tronçais and Pedunculated Oak is the predominate oak in Limousin. Sessile Oak is tight-grained and Pedunculated Oak is wide-grained and imparts more tannin into the spirit.

Cooperages and Barrel Details



Called the “tonnellerie” in French, there are a lot of cooperages that produce barrels for cognac producers. Wine and the use of French oak is big business so there is no shortage of barrel makers in France (some even have a footprint in the USA!). There are plenty of small and mid-size cooperages, and some of the big houses have their own cooperages, too. For example, Hennessy has a “barrel-making factory.” There are also barrel brokers where producers can purchase barrels made by different coopers.

There are no restrictions on barrel size for cognac, and the norms seem to be 350 liters or 500 liters. However, don’t be surprised by other barrel sizes if you come across them (unlike scotch, they don’t have goofy names for the different barrel sizes)…some cognacs spend time in gigantic vats, tuns, or whatever the producer decides to call it.

One of the big differences between cognac barrels and whisky barrels is that cognac barrels are “toasted” rather than charred. Just like charring, toasting is a process that burns the inside of a barrel to a desired point to mellow the wood tannins and raw oak flavors. Toasting is on the lighter end of the burning spectrum and helps release vanillin from the cellulose in the wood and imparts spicy, vanilla notes. There are degrees of toasting, from light to heavy, and the stronger the toast the more the barrel flavors are present. Separate from barrel charring, which further mellows interaction between tannins and the spirit, barrel toasting allows for more interaction between the wood tannin and spirit. Not all cognac producers use a toast; Daniel Bouju uses a char and it’s easy to see that use in the dark color of his cognac. If you’re more interesting in the science of toasting check out some of the cooperage sites I listed below (like Vicard Tonnelleries).

 (radiation toasting)

 (toasting vs. charring)

Effect of Wood on Cognac
Below is a chart on the coloring of cognac. Obviously it’s just a generalization because toast (or char) level as well as cask type are going to play a role in how quickly the cask affects the spirit. Surprisingly, it does not take very long to gain color which is mainly due to new oak casks being used for the first few years of cognac aging (I’ll dive into that topic on another post about aging).


Summary
This post is just about cognac barrels and I’ll write another piece about ageing in the future. The main takeaways that I think are important are: (1) cognac casks must be made from oak, (2) re-use casks can be used only if they held wine or grape-based spirits, (3) Tronçais and Limousin are regions where oak trees are sourced for cognac casks, (4) cognac casks are generally 350 or 500 liters in size, and (5) cognac barrels are generally toasted but not always.

There are some interesting topics of discussion (like the Blue Swift label) that I’ll leave for the discussion groups (like Serious Brandy on Facebook).

UPDATE: A buddy provided me with the link with the actual AOC law and regulations for cognac. The link is provided below and I've updated the law section of this post.

Sources

AOC Regs for cognac (google translate): https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&sp=nmt4&u=https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/eli/decret/2009/9/21/AGRT0916772D/jo/texte/fr&xid=25657,15700022,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700186,15700189,15700190,15700201,15700205&usg=ALkJrhiwbtaibTcRKjLqxSsCohvBZJ_62w

The Law: http://www.cognac.fr/cognac/_ru/2_cognac/index.aspx?page=appellation

The Law: www.pediacognac.com

The Law (use of casks holding grape-based wines/spirits): https://troymedia.com/2018/05/07/understanding-cognac-global-market/

The Law (Blue Swift issue): https://blog.cognac-expert.com/martell-releases-blue-swift-vsop-bourbon-cask-finish/

Forrest of Tronçais: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_of_Tron%C3%A7ais

ONF Website: http://www.onf.fr/filiere_bois/@@index.html

Troncais Timber: http://seguinmoreaunapa.com/innovation/best-of-oak/

Limousin Oak (Germain-Robin): https://youtu.be/1xHWD45E6S4

More on wood: https://blog.cognac-expert.com/oak-barrel-cask-cognac-age-limousin/

More on wood: http://www.knoxbarrels.com/FAQ.html

Cooperages: http://www.alcademics.com/2009/10/a-cooperage-in-cognac.html

Cooperages (list of Coopers): http://www.bouchardcooperages.com/usa/products/products_intro.html

Cooperages: https://www.hennessy.com/en-gb/news/7842-barrel-making-factory

Toasting: http://seguinmoreaunapa.com/products/barrels/toast/

Toasting: http://www.bouchardcooperages.com/usa/products/vicard/vicard_intro.html

Toasting vs. Charring: http://www.winespectator.com/drvinny/show/id/52130

Charring: https://vinepair.com/wine-blog/what-are-barrel-char-levels-and-how-do-they-affect-the-way-my-whiskey-tastes/

BNIC Press Pack: http://www.cognac.fr/cognac/pdf/publications/dossier_en_07.pdf





Sunday, May 13, 2018

Eric Bordelet “Henri Bernard Beudin” 18yr Calvados 53%


This is another pickup I snagged on a whim a couple years ago…Instead of buying lotto scratch-offs, I purchase random bottles of booze I know nothing about. At least I can mix bad booze and hedge against a total loss, I guess. Anyways, Eric Bordelet is an apple dude and before buying this 18yr calvados I was familiar with his ciders (Normandy, France), which are really tasty. Bordelet sourced this cask from Henri Bernard Beudin. It was distilled in 1997 and aged in used Chenin Blanc barrels. I can’t find much info on HBB so I’m guessing he’s a small farm producer…probably doesn’t even have a Yelp or Facebook page! US distro for this bottle was through PM Spirits and Nicolas Palazzi. It was priced around $120 for a 375ml – ouch!

Eric Bordelet “Henri Bernard Beudin” 18yr Calvados 53%

Nose: Sweet apples pop along with a sourish acidic note (if that makes sense) and woody wood…confectionary sugar and candy, think smarties…some sweet floral notes like honeysuckle and a little floral undergrowth, stems and such

Palate: apples (obviously), but also pears and pear skin – the juicy Royal Verano pears from Harry and David gift baskets…the sourish note from the nose translates (I have no idea what to otherwise call it) along with powerful oak (jeeze, chill oak, chill)…a tart, candy-like quality lingers in the background 

Finish: the mouthfeel on this is velvety great and the great flavor lingers for a while…

Thoughts

When people say “it’s like comparing apples to oranges” around me, the saying doesn’t have its intended effect – I am incredibly partial to apples…It’s not even a contest. For what its worth, I ate an organic Fuji apple right before pouring this, to you know, set the mood. This 18 year old calvados tastes exactly like what you’d think good apple booze would taste like – it’s delicious. Naturally, I’m partial to it. I really am. I dig this, and, but for the oak, which is a little out of balance, it’d be an easy A. But, I can’t ignore the oak…and while I’m complaining, I’ll knock off some points for the price…so I’m giving this…

Grade: A Minus

Just because I gave this an A Minus doesn’t mean I’m not going to buy another bottle of this...If I can find one that is...

François Giboin Tres Vielles Borderies 43%


Ryan's Review

Today we’re tasting a coganc from François GIboin, a producer who is based in the Borderies region.  François is a producer grower, which means he doesn’t source his grapes, but picks from his own vineyards to go into his cognac production.  He has vineyards both in Borderies and Fins Bois, but his property, l’Hermitage, in Borderies is his home base, so to speak. L’Hermitage contains 13.5 hectares of vineyards and François is the sixth generation to be producing on the property.  11.5 hectares are reserved solely for Ugni Blanc growth.  He reserves the other 2 hectares for grapes used in pineau production.  He distills on lees in a copper pot still.  Only 20% of the production, about 7,000 bottles, is sold under the François Giboin label each year. The rest is reserved for further aging, pineau production, or is sold to Coirvoisier for blends. 

Much more can be read about his production here:

http://www.charlesnealselections.com/giboin.html

It’s a very informative and well-written post, and I recommend giving it a read.

The tasting notes below are for a 1974 Borderies. However, while this was distilled in 1974 and “bottled” in 2014, it was earlier moved from cask into demijohns where it sat for around a decade.  This bottle was purchased from Astor Wines, which states it is essentially 29 years old, an age that I’ve found to be a very nice sweet spot for many cognacs. There’s a label on the back of the bottle designating it as non-filtered. Always a good thing, right? This was bottled at 43%.

N: An immediately inviting nose. Oranges and cream.  Sweet honey, fruit juice.  There is some light oak there, as well.
T:  Immediately lively and juicy. Orange blossoms. Brown sugar. Thick honey.  Loads of sweet citrus. Nectarines and tangerines. Stone fruits, too. Plums. Some light florals. Buttery. Rich and fresh.
F: Cinnamon, some nuttiness, quite sweet still. Spiced cake comes to mind.  There’s also some oak pushing through in the very end. But it just balances out the whole package. This is an example of a cognac bottled at the right time, and at the right proof, I might add.

This cognac is like having a picnic in a meadow on a sunny day with a light breeze, a basket of fresh fruits and a jar of spiced honey to dip them in. Sorry, did you just groan a bit?  More to the point, it’s excellent cognac and highly drinkable. I think this bottle is no longer available from Astor Wines. I recall picking it up for around $130 when it was available. A zero regrets purchase.  There are other bottles of 1974 vintage floating around. I am not sure if there is much or any variation between them.

A-

Wednesday, May 9, 2018

Maison Surrenne Tonneau no.1 40% (bottled 2013)


This bottle is an old one…how old is anyone’s guess…but the label leads you on to believe that, at least from a price-to-age ratio, you’re getting a steal. Lucky, lucky you, Mr./Mrs. Consumer.

From the label: “Inconceivably rich. In 1922, Surrenne filled an oak tonneau with old petite champagne cognacs. Concerned about evaporation because the tonneau gets direct sun from the half-moon casement over the entry door, Surrenne’s successive cellar-masters topped the tonneau every year for 79 years, always with old petite champagne of very high quality. Never used, this rare solera-like blend contains a high proportion of cognac aged more than 100 years. From the Madame facility in Jarnac. Bottled unfiltered from tonneau no. August 19, 2013.

Cool.

Now if you’re wondering where this comes from, Maison Surrenne is Germain-Robin’s label for cognac sourced from Tiffon. I don’t know the history behind the name Maison Surrenne, but I imagine the pseudonym is similar to the use of alter-names in scotch world because of NDAs and brand protectionism (like “Speyside Distillery”).

Germain-Robin has been bottling the Tonneau no.1 for a while, starting around 2001. The earlier bottles were at or near cask strength (around ~42%), but for some reason in the early 2010s they brought it down to a standard 40% (or possibly had to bring it up with younger, high proof spirit due to evap). Either way, I’ve read in some cognac forums that the earlier bottles were dynamite while the later bottles were a massive disappointment, with little room in between.

Here’s what I think of the 2013…

Nose: sweet and herbal, with some mint, chocolate, graham cracker…mint chocolate graham cracker??? Also baking spices, like cumin, and a little ginger

Palate: velvety mouthfeel for a low proof drinker…chocolate, walnuts, nutmeg, molasses and caramel

Finish: thick and hangs on for a while despite the proof, but I wouldn’t call it long. Definitely something you want to start the night with rather than cap it off with

Thoughts

I’ve got no complaints here. Would I buy another bottle? Probably not. Do I regret buying this bottle? Nope. I think Binnys has them on clearance for $200, which isn’t bad, but there are cheaper, similar options. Also, there is a caveat here: people have said there is a massive drop-off in recent bottles (~2015sh), so buyer beware. I’d say the 2013 is good and definitely has a solid proportion of older Petite cognac, but maybe not as much as the earlier bottlings. I'd love to try one of the 2000s bottles!

Grade: B Plus

Additional information about Maison Surrenne

http://craftdistillers.com/wp-content/uploads/MS_infosheet.pdf

Monday, May 7, 2018

1974 Darroze de la Poste 48%


This is an armagnac bottled by Darroze, produced at Domaine de La Poste and comprised entirely of Ugni Blanc.  Taken from the Darroze website, de La Poste is located in the Tenaraze region, and most of the distillation that occurred at this site took place in the ‘70s. Thus, here we have a 1974. Another armagnac house that created their oak casks for aging from their local forests. I don’t know why I find that so cool, but I just do. It was bottled in 2017, making this a 43 year old armagnac. Bottled at 48% abv. Thanks to Joe L. for the sample!

1974 Darroze de la poste
48%

N: Raisins, apples, buttery. Some deeper spices and polished oak that only comes with age. It’s a very enticing nose.
T: There is immediate oak, although it’s not overbearing and is balanced by some lighter berries and orchid fruits. Then cinnamon and pepper.  Moves to darker flavors of leather, molasses, oak, and varnish.
F: Drying oak is what lingers with not too much sweetness carrying through.
O: This one shows its age, but does so pretty well for the most part. Generally speaking these are flavors that I very much enjoy, but I do think it’s just a bit tired, a bit past its prime.  The oak plays its cards a bit too heavily. I would have enjoyed to taste it with some less time in the cask.  But, a lovely old armagnac, all the same. For the oak lovers.

B+

Malternative "Avant" Cognac Borderies 1925 Belgium 49%

Today’s review is of a 1925 Borderies from Malternative, an independent bottler based out of Belgium (owned by Pieter Knape) focusing on bot...